Welcome back everyone,
Here's the New Year's Question, which you would have seen in The New Paper today.
Alex Ferguson recently named five "world-class" players he has coached during his 20 years of managing Manchester United, and David Beckham wasn't among them.
When asked for the list, for a club history published two weeks ago, Ferguson named goalkeeper Peter Schmeichel, winger Ryan Giggs, midfielder Roy Keane, and
strikers Eric Cantona and Wayne Rooney.
While he added that current winger Cristiano Ronaldo has the potential to join the list in future, and that Paul Scholes is a possibility, Beckham didn't get a
mention.
This, despite former England captain Beckham helping Man U win nine League and Cup trophies - including the famous 1999 Champions League victory - in his 12-year spell at Old Trafford.
Was it all to do with the pair's personality clashes?
Ferguson was once so angry that he kicked a boot in the changing room and it hit Beckham above the eye, opening a deep cut. He then sold him to Real Madrid after Man
U won the Premiership in 2003.
The Postman's question this week is: Should David Beckham have been in Ferguson's list of the top five "world-class" players who featured for him, and be voted ahead of Schmeichel, Giggs, Cantona, Rooney, or Keane?
Reply by 3pm on Tuesday, since there might be more than a few New Year hangovers.
And in not more than 200 words please (with the results out next
Friday).
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The sponsor of our prizes for January will be announced next Friday, along with the first Letter of the Week in the new year.
Comment online here by clicking below my sign-off here, or e-mail to The New Paper's sports desk under the title "Dear Postman".
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Happy New Year!
Ernest Luis
The Postman
The New Paper
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57 comments:
First of all, I don’t think it’s such a big deal that Beckham wasn’t mentioned. Even though it’s somewhat obvious that Fergie doesn’t seem to like Becks anyway, let’s look at things from a different perspective. There were many others who weren’t mentioned too, like Van Nistelrooy, Hughes or even Robson. Moreover, I don’t think Becks really deserves to be mention in the same breath as some other great players during Fergie’s time.
Perhaps he can be considered a world-class SUPERSTAR, but the tag of “world-class player” is still debatable for him. Except for Rooney (who I feel still has a lot to prove like Ronaldo), I pretty much agree with Fergie’s choices actually. They are influential players who’d claim a starting place in any top team during their prime. Is Beckham really of the same status? Well, remember, he was bought by Real Madrid not exactly for his footballing abilities, but more for his ability to sell shirts after all.
Alright, I know I’m sounding rather cynical of Becks, he is actually quite a good footballer, but I just feel there’re many way ahead of him in terms of footballing talent.
From the list of world-class players Sir Alex named,there is certainly a criteria he used to pick them and that is either they finished their career in Old Trafford or they are still plying trade under him.So that makes sense why Beckham was not included,same apply to Robson and many others.
If theres other reason why Becks is excluded,its definately the clashes of ego between him and Sir Alex.One prefer his players to stay out of limelight and concentrate on their fottball,another just can't shimmy out of it.Beckham surely isn't those dazzling dribbler doing flick tricks and stepovers but who can say his 50 yards passes,pin-point crosses and those long range shooting of his are not world-class.
I do find it surprise to find Rooney in the list.Scholes should have took the place instead because Rooney just like Ronaldo is an unfinished article.They are no doubt world-class prodigies so maybe he should be placed in the same category as Ronaldo,the potential is definately there.
Hands up to the other 4 guys in his list.One red-nosed,loudhailing commanding GK,one evergreen wing wizard whos still looking good plus the leadership of the Captain Keane and one man to rule them all,King Eric.Not me of course,but Cantona.heh
Cheers
Sir Alex is a genius .Becks is a good footballer but in MU there were many excellent players so much better than Becks .So it is clear what AF was trying to do - pick the bests of the best and in comes pure football skills and talents .This was where Becks lacks . He is good and hardworking but not talented and skillful enough . That's it .AF is a careful and articulate coach .He knows better .
I agree tt Becks should not have been chosen. I do not think that had to deal with their numerous clashes. As we all know, Keane parted 'amicably' with Man U and yet he was still named amongst the five. I guess the five were chosen based on how the team would have performed WITHOUT them. Without any of the five from Schmeichel all the way to Cantona, the Utd team would not seem like a real Utd team. As countless world stars have graced the Utd stage in Fergie's tenure as manager, it will not be surprising if we find the odd name missing such as the likes of Becks, V. Nistelrooy or Ince etc.
Cheers,
kel
Without Beckham in the team, Man U wouldn't have achieved the treble in 99. WIthout him, Van Nistelrooy would not have been scoring goals for fun. Beckam is worth 10 points at least. Remember when Beckham went to Madrid, Man U's goals for dropped considerably. His assists and deadly freekicks were sorely missed. But why no Beckham?
20 years is a pretty long time. It's quite difficult to come out with a top 5 player list. Cantona, the bargain buy from Leeds provided the spark for Man U's domestic dominance. Schmeichel, Giggs and Keane was spine on which the decade long dominance was built on. Rooney represents the current season and the future. If there was a top 10 list, perhaps C.Ronaldo, Scholes and Beckham will come into the picture.
Also another thing to take note is that of the five featured, four of them enjoyed league success except for one. It's no brainer why Ferguson chose this moment to release his list. Expect Rooney to work doubly hard to contribute to Man U's title chase this season and for many seasons to come to prove that his inclusion in the list is fully justified.
i've never classified becks as 'world-class' and i don't think he'll ever fit that category. honestly, what is it that he has that makes him world-class? his universal commercial good looks? he can't even pin point a beautiful cross. to me, he's just an average player. he's not up there with the united legends.
i agree with all of Fergie's choice, except Rooney. Ronaldo may be around the same age as him, but he's proven how lethal he can be. Rooney is just overhyped by the English press. until now, i haven't seen even 70% of his true potential. it's just too early to label him as one of United's greats.
In fact, i think Paul Scholes should have replaced Rooney on the list. all the reasons are there. maybe he can't tackle well, but he is undisputedly one of the best, albeit underrated, midfielder england ever had.
I just cannot figure out why Wayne Rooney is even in the top five. Yes he has the quality, but surely it is too fast to praise a 21-year old whose ego is getting bigger and bigger.
Beckham, on the other hand, should deserve something in Ferguson's mind. After all, Beckham became one of the Manchester United stars in the late 1990s and was a first-team player in almost every match. But times have changed. Beckham is not playing at Madrid, Fergie doesn't like Beckham and his "bigger than life" lifestyle.
Most importantly, Ferguson doesn't give chances. Most players who had left Manchester United do not come back and play for them. The main reason is Ferguson. That is why it is not such a surprise for Beckham to be axed, just like he is now (for both Madrid and England).
I do not think Beckham has the necessary qualities to be in Fergie’s list. In terms of influence and importance, the “Great 5” definitely stands out more than Becks.
If we take a look at the players Fergie has managed over the years, the likes of Bryan Robson, Mark Hughes, Scholes and Nistelrooy certainly deserves a mention ahead of Becks.
Beckham remains one of the best passers and dead-ball specialist in football. However, his celebrity status has unfortunately gone against him. That is where the problem lies.
The 5 on Fergie’s list do not court the media nor do they act as though they are anything more than just footballers. Beckham, on the other hand, with Posh at hand, has become more of a pop icon than a footballer. His pop status has made him bigger than the team which Fergie will never allow.
The players in Fergie’s list are world-class players and consummate professionals. They act as footballers, first and foremost, and coupled with their ability, talent and importance to his teams, it shouldn’t come as a shock Fergie considered them as his Top 5.
It doesn't seem much of a surprise that Ferguson didn't name Beckham as one of the "world-class" players ever since the infamous incident where Ferguson kicked a boot at Beckham.
Yes, Beckham was part of a team(s) that helped Man Utd win nine League and Cup trophies during his stay there. But I feel that he can't be considered world-class yet; rather I consider him part of a world-class team that helped Man Utd win these trophies. Without other players like Schmeichel, Giggs, Keane, Cantona etc, would Man Utd have won these trophies? Definitely not. Man Utd couldn't have possibly relied on Beckham's crosses and freekicks alone to win.
If you can't rely on 1 player to turn a whole match then I don't think he's world-class. At least we can consider Schmeichel worldclass; without Schmeichel we would have seen more spectacular goals being scored. But Beckham? Nope. He's not totally an all-rounded midfielder as his only strengths are at set pieces and crossing, so we can't consider him world class.
For me, although he's not included in the list(which I think he shouldn't be in the first place), I feel that Beckham at some point of time should be acknowledged as a great player who helped Man Utd win many trophies in the 90's.
If Jose has his “Untouchables”, Fergie’s list represents his “Irreplacables”. If any one on his list was removed, the team will not be the same. They represent important and influential components in the Red Devils machinery.
While Becks is a good player, he is not irreplaceable. This cannot be said for Fergie’s Great 5. It took Ferguson 5 seasons to find an able replacement for “The Great Dane. No winger has even come close to Giggs who is the closest thing to George Best.
Even Fergie admitted Keane was irreplaceable and Cantona was simply a genius. Though the jury is still out on Rooney, his influence and presence is vital to United’s march towards the title.
These are players that come by once in a blue moon and Ferguson knows he simply cannot go out there and find another Cantona or Giggs or Schmeichel.
Beckham, on the other hand, became too big for the team and the unwanted media attention he attracts was unhealthy to the team. Hence, Ferguson let Beckham go because he knew Beckham was not irreplaceable. A certain Cristiano Ronaldo is testament to that.
I don't think anyone is irreplaceable in this game of football since its a team game.Yes,it could be hard to replace the vital cogs but its also via this route that we see the new stars rised to the big stages.
Somehow I feel the media critics to Becks is a bit harsh.Not forgetting that Becks caught the eyes of Sir Alex first by winning Sir Bobby Charlton football competition years ago.He got the tecnhiques but his passes and crosses surpassed of that to his dribbles and tricks.His lack of pace is a big disadvantage with the game being played in burstling pace now.But I still think no one in Man Utd now crosses better than him.
Well its subjective to whats world-class in our dictionary but to me,he worth a mention at least in the top 50 players in Man Utd history.Top 5?With the 4 mentioned besides Roo,I don't think so.
Well,I don't think that whether Beckham is featured in the list has affected their performances in the present and maybe future.It could be that the personality clashes between Fergie and Beckham made Fergie did not include him in the prestige list.But when Fergie sold Becks to Real in 2003,Beckham did not play as well as he did in Man U.Maybe when Beckham left,his morale was low and that could be why he did not play as well as he did in Man U or he has past his prime.Look at Man U now,they have all sorts of talented young players such as Ronaldo,Rooney,Saha etc,why would they need Beckham?Ronaldo has been raking in the goals for Utd in the past few matches and Chelsea has been losing points at home.Cech,Cudicini,Cole and Robben are injured and the absence of captain Terry who has a surgery on his back a few days ago could be out for up to 6 weeks.Without Terry and Cudicini,they could concede more goals and lose more points.If it continues like this,Man U would win the EPL without the help of Beckham.Well in the past 3 seasons,Man U did not win the league not because of Beckham but because of injuries and some tatics which have gone wrong for Fergie but what can you say about this season?Thks for your time,Ernest.Cheers!Wishing you a Happy New Year.
While Beckham may be "World class" when it comes to looks, but he is by no means "World class" when it comes to playing the beautiful game. Therfore, Becks should not be named in Fergie's list as his game is too one dimensional;he can only play the crossing game. Which means that if he is to be plying his trade in a "passing" team like Arsenal or Barcelona, he will not shine. My definition of a world class player is someone who is able to shine in any team & wanted by all managers. Schmeichel, Giggs, Keane, Cantona & rooney are examples of those players. however, i don't see beckham falling into that category, he is a manufactured player, meaning that if the gaffer does not know how to use him properly(it seems that so far only ferguson knows how to use him), he will not be able to function well.
his off the field activities are also not fitting of a soccer player. he seems to be more interested in getting endorsement deals than inproving his soccer skills.
although, he is without a doubt the best crosser in the world, but i just feel that he is overrated. Hence, fergie is right in leaving him out of the list as he is at best "above average" as a player.
I do not know why Alex Ferguson always hates David Beckham.Beckham had contribute many to Manchester United and without doubt he should be in the list too.
In the past years, Manchester United had produce talented players.All the players in the list are really talented. For my opinion, I don’t think that Wayne Rooney should be in the list as he does not have that experience and he can perform much better in the future. David Beckham is the ideal player to be place as a ‘world-class player’ as he is not only a free kick specialist but he can became a very good captain for any club or any England squad. Yet, I still do not know why nobody appreciate his talent he has contribute to both England, Real Madrid and Manchester United
Muhammad Fakhri
7 Years old
World-class is a vague term depending on how you define it. But I think it takes a more than a little bit of imagination to put Wayne Rooney in the list ! What are his credentials at Man U and country level? He is nowhere near even David Beckham. Quite obviously Alex Ferguson message is meant for Beckham and Rooney. It was meant to encourage Wayne Rooney to live up to that world-class tag he put on him. Rooney potential is without doubt but at club level he got competition - Cristiano Ronaldo. Rooney has not got consistency yet!
If you asked a panel of sports journalists, they may not even agree to put Ryan Giggs and Peter Schmiechel on the list as there are a whole host of other players in the continent that are ahead of them.
Alex Ferguson's message is meant for Rooney and David Beckoff(ham..) ..Hehehe
if there is one word that can describe sir alex ferguson's feeling towards david beckham,its disappointment.from my point of view,beckham has disappointed sir alex ferguson immensely with his off the field superstar lifestyle,think about what was going through alex ferguson's mind when he first saw david beckham score his numero uno free kick.the gaffer saw the potential in the kid to be the best freekick taker in the world.he protected him from the press,gave him the number seven shirt that was vacated by the great cantona,gave him words of assurance after the horror show in france98 but alas popularity and superstardom has gotten another victim in the goldenballs.frm ensei and you can contact me at ensei9@hotmail.com
I do not see why there's a hooha regarding Becks's absence from the list. In any case, V.Nistelrooy or Scholes deserves more to be on the list. As we all saw shortly before Becks was offloaded to R.Madrid, Solskjaer proved a good replacement on the right esp in games against Arsenal during that season etc. As there is only places for 5 people, we can't expect all of the big stars who have played for Utd to be on it.
Yeah, i agree w BH tt Becks had plenty of assists. But with Becks, Man U were becoming predictable due to his one-sided dimension of playing. He had a world-class right foot and stature, but that was all about him. I am not discounting his contributions but instead i am looking more at the contributions of others of Man U..
Rooney's inclusion? Probably a good tactic by Fergie for Rooney to challenge himself to justify his inclusion in this five. This is done in the hope that Roon will play above his capabilities to dethrone Chelsea in the coming seasons.
Cheers,
kel
David Beckham is probably the most celebrated footballer in recent history. Not because of his skills but more of his good looks and marketability. Hence, I feel that Ferguson did not make a mistake in failing to mention Beckham as one of his top 5 players.
Ferguson has been with the club for 20 years. Given Manchester United's financial muscle, the club has seen many players come and go. He has made execeptional buys(think van nistelrooy, cantona and kanchelskis) and developed an outstanding football academy(think neville brothers, giggs, scholes and yes, beckham).
Yes, Beckham is a good footballer. His dead ball skills are probably better than anyone on this planet. However, it is not right to have his name alongside the likes of scholes, giggs, schmeichel and keane. These are players that have contributed loads to the team. These players formed the backbone of the team. Beckham did contribute his part, but his contributions were not as significant compared to the likes of the players mentioned.
Therefore, i believe that the failure in mentioning Beckham as one of his top 5 players is understandable and perhaps, a good call at that as well.
Yup,I do agree nobody is irreplaceable. Sir Alex has managed to rebuild teams during his past 20 years. What I meant by using the term was to highlight that these players are unique talents and what they have cannot be replicated. Maybe its this special quality which Fergie considers as "world-class".
These type of players do not come often and while you can buy a Carrick to replace Keane in midfield but you cannot replicate the immense influence and vigor Keano gives to the team. It is not the same.
It's difficult to go out there and find another Cantona or Giggs. Even Wayne Rooney can be considered a freakish talent. When he was 17, he had such immense strength, power and natural ability, displaying maturity and a football brain beyond his youth. It's no surprise Sir Alex forked out all that money to get him.
Hence, I feel when Sir Alex drew out his list, he had these criteria in mind. While Beckham is a good player, he is by no means a rare talent in football. Hence, he shouldn't be in Fergie's list.
P.s Happy New year everybody! May the new year be as fruitful to us all. Have a good year ahead! :j
Its goodbye 2006 and hello 2007!Happy New Year people!Wishes you guys all the best!
Cheers.
skxJust wondering whether if the likes of Zidane,Ronaldinho and Essien didn't slip out of Sir Alex's hands,will his list of top 5 world-class players he coached during his Man Utd stint still remain intact?
I guess things might just changed a little bit eh.heh
Cheers
Beckham has become more of a media celebrity than a professional footballer. That however, does not discount the fact that he was an integral part of Man Utd triple-championship season. Beckham is a brilliant crosser of the ball and on the odd occasion, he does score the important freekicks. Still, I would have to agree with Sir Alex's opinion. While David Beckham was a big part of Man Utd, his footballing skills sadly pales against his good looks. He is not a bad player, but seldom do we see Beckham able to establish a strong pressence in midfield like Roy Keane or Paul Scholes. I am actually more surprised that Rooney was named instead of Scholes. In fact, I am apprehensive of Sir Alex's nominations for the fact Rooney was named and not Beckham. At his young age, Wazza has not prove his worth, and while he is undoubtedly a spectacular prospect, does not deserve to be named before Beckham who has been through so much with the team.
Yup, Happy New Year to Eric and everyone here!
Big news of the day, Jose is turning into Fergie, giving the hairdryer treatment to his players.
HAPPY NEW YEAR to all bloggers!!!
hope chelsea can overtake man utd.. john terry n cech, we need u!!
During Beckham's Old Trafford days, he rules deadball situations and was an accomplished passer of the ball. Yet his above average performances was not enough to propel him onto Fergie's elite list.
Saved for that infamous kungfu kick, Eric Cantona mesmerized us with his skills. The £1m bargain buy 'King' was the catalyst inspiring Man U to 4 league titles in his short 5 seasons. "Giggsy", Schmeichel and "Keano" too had illustrious trophies laden careers at Man U. Keane was considered the manager on the pitch and dictated the flow of the game. Giggs provided the mazing dribbling and goals that unlocked defenses when aerial raids failed, even up till today! Schmeichel was the imposing giant ruling the six yard box. Even on one on one, opposing team players also find it difficult to score against his intimidating presence. The fantastic four earned their rights to be included.
Rooney is the 'Special One' on-field. His visionary play unlocks the tightest defense. His energetic workrate is simply amazing. In short, he can be found all over the pitch. It must be tough choosing between two prodigies, Rooney and Ronaldo. If Rooney is the fifth, Ronaldo must have been the sixth!
Happy New Year to everyone here!! May this year be the best year of your life! May the Postman be the hottest soccer blog in town! Haha!
Of course, the omission of Becks has got to do with the pair’s personality clashes. In fact, the list of this five depends on the relationship between Fergie and the players. Even the deservedly inclusion (or at least the mention) of Jaap Stam & V.Nistelrooy is marred by the fact that they and the manager ended on sour terms. (Ps: Fergie had no choice but to send Keane packing because he commented badly on his team-mates)
Though Beckham is considered by many to be an average player who was propelled to international recognition due to his extremely gifted right foot & chiseled good looks to, one cannot ignore the massive contributions he made to Man Utd in terms of trophies, performance & ASSISTS!! He had been world class for Man Utd after emerging through the youth squad. Man Utd’s winning style of attacking play was largely based on his many pin-point deliveries to the strikers and the strong commanding presence of Keane, wizardry of Giggs and Scholes with the long range shots. It is unfair that Becks didn’t even get a nod when the rest do.
Beckham contributed significantly to Man United’s success. After he left in 2003, ManU has not won any more EPL titles since and van Nistelrooy’s score-rate was also abruptly reduced. However, Beckham is known more for his product endorsements rather than for his footballing skills.
Ferguson, like an army Sergeant Major, expects complete loyalty, total obedience and hard work, both on and off the field, from his players. Those on the list are people that Fergie has always respected and trusted. These players share a special bond and friendship with Fergie. None of them have gotten bigger than the club and they are known for their football skills alone.
There were factors why Beckham was not included on Fergie’s list. These include the problems with Beckham’s glittering non-footballing lifestyle and the infamous flying boot’s incident. Moreover, Beckham’s a world class superstar, but NOT a world class player.
Giggs was once sidelined and on his way out, but he persevered. Rooney however is a surprise. He is still unpolished, but definitely has excellent long term potential to be one of the Red devil’s greats.
Schmichel, Giggs, Cantona and Keane? Definitely world-class players. No arguments.
Beckham contributed significantly to Man United’s success. After he left in 2003, ManU has not won any more EPL titles since and van Nistelrooy’s score-rate was also abruptly reduced. However, Beckham is known more for his product endorsements rather than for his footballing skills.
Ferguson, like an army Sergeant Major, expects complete loyalty, total obedience and hard work, both on and off the field, from his players. Those on the list are people that Fergie has always respected and trusted. These players share a special bond and friendship with Fergie. None of them have gotten bigger than the club and they are known for their football skills alone.
There were factors why Beckham was not included on Fergie’s list. These include the problems with Beckham’s glittering non-footballing lifestyle and the infamous flying boot’s incident. Moreover, Beckham’s a world class superstar, but NOT a world class player.
Giggs was once sidelined and on his way out, but he persevered. Rooney however is a surprise. He is still unpolished, but definitely has excellent long term potential to be one of the Red devil’s greats.
Schmichel, Giggs, Cantona and Keane? Definitely world-class players. No arguments.
Ernest, can you please delete one of my above two posts, because they're both the same? Thanks.
A "world-class" player ranks among the foremost in the world. Ferguson's "world-class" criteria can be seen in his selection of United legends Peter Schmeichel, Roy Keane, and Eric Cantona. They inspired fellow players and had the necessary skills, indomitable spirits of excellence and the desire to be the best - qualities that Ferguson values. Ryan Giggs has similar qualities and is a constant pillar of strength, justifying his inclusion in Ferguson's list.However, Wayne Rooney's inclusion in the list is premature as he has the necessary skills, but has yet to display the insatiable desire that Ferguson admires.
In applying Ferguson's criteria to David Beckham, I find that Beckham does not inspire the same confidence in fellow players. Yes, he is hardworking and often performs above-average, especially in deadball situations. Yet, he lacks creative talent. Furthermore, his departure from Manchester United signalled his inability to match up to Ferguson's exacting standards.
Under Ferguson, Manchester United has produced a host of outstanding players which any club in the world would hanker after. Beckham is one of them. Unfortunately, he ranks below other "world-class" United players such as Cristiano Ronaldo, Peter Scholes and Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. Sadly, Beckham is more "world-class" celebrity than "world-class" footballer.
On a sidenote, please, no Becks to Liverpool! I'll cry if that happens. DIC said they weren't be meddling with things on the pitch, so please keep it that way, even when it comes to shirt sales! I know Becks is a good crosser, a good right midfielder and all, but his celebrity status just takes away attention from all the football. While I honestly think this is just one of the many incredulous-sounding rumours (including the Villa to Liverpool one, I'd pinch myself if that happens now), it's not unimaginable to think someone wants to buy Becks for selling shirts again.
Let's just say Becks is a victim of his own limelight. Moreover, his spotlight is hardly ever focused on his football talent (think of all the screaming Japanese girls...), thus we are sometimes led to think he must be a very poor footballer then. Nevertheless, I wouldn't want Tom Cruise to be playing at Liverpool even if he can cross a few balls, you know.
Same sentiment there ladylala.The guys from Dubai have absolutely no idea what they are doing by bringing a former Devil to the Kop.Everyone knows the fierce rivalry between Liverpool and Man Utd.Will Beckham risks his very much respectable status in the eyes of Man Utd fans to play for Liverpool?If he did then he is seriously doing an unrepairable damage here.
One thing to note,Rafa is trying to build a team for years to come,so a 31 years old Becks joining doesn't seem to fit into his plan for the future,a long term one to say.
Its pretty obvious this could just be a hush-hush blanket to calm the nerves of Reds fans after rumours of the Dubai group will sell out the club after a few years.Tremors before even the wholetakover is completed.Tough ride ahead for the new owners I guessed.
Cheers
Beckham not having a mention on Fergie's list of wordclass players only means that the Old Master was not over yet with his sentiments over his former protege. Although admittedly Beckham would not be on par compared to Schmeichel, Keane, Cantona and Giggs it wouldn't be right either to say that he is well below Rooney and Ronaldo by just basing on mere potentials.
Beckham may have his flaws but he is and remains a difference maker in matches where a single goal would determine the output of the game. He is a tireless worker on the pitch and has great passion for the game. You take away the media hoopla revolving Beckham and you would see a consumate footballer.
I wouldn't put Beckham as a word class player just basing on his deadball situtuation skills, but I do believe he ranks higher than Ronaldo and Rooney if you compare all the United players that had come and go. Both young players still have to live with their bloated reputation and injury could shorten their careers. Longevity must be also considered when you gauge a player. Beckham had been there and done that.
So I would say "NO" to being a world class player. But Rooney and Ronaldo above him? Not yet.
Beckham to Liverpool? That would be incredible if its pulled off!Do the Reds really need Beckham to sell jerseys to fans all over? If he is deemed not good enough for Real, why would he do any better for Liverpool?
I agree with Eric and ladylala that having Becks at Anfield is unimaginable. While Pennant and Gonzalez are not exactly world-class, surely the Reds could do better than getting Beckham??
I do not know how much he can improve the team if he does come to merseyside but if Rafa is thinking of rebuilding a squad around Gerrard, Becks is certainly not the way to go. Get Joaquin or Daniel Alves for the goodness sake! :P
Yeah, the Beckham to Liverpool rumours scare me as much as the Owen to Man U rumours last time. While I don't know exactly how Man U fans feel about him (after all, some Liverpool fans hate Owen now...), but I'd rather he keep his "Devil (legend or otherwise) status"! Becks, please don't come to Liverpool, do yourself and us a favour!
Just a question about Ince... I wasn't around during "his time", but I always got the impression neither Man U or Liverpool fans liked him very much. Was it because he spent time at both clubs?
Well well, though Becks is certainly not bad a player, yeah, I agree we certainly can do better than picking up others' unwanted 'things' (I shan't use
'rubbish' haha) all the time!
Well Ince aka Guv'nor wasn't that much hated by Man Utd fans compared to Liverpool's I assumed.And maybe thats due to Liverpool winning nothing much while hes in Anfield and the Reds fans think he could be a spy crossing over from Old Trafford.
In fact he left Man Utd when he was in his peak,kinda surprise me at that time.Part of it might be due to the presence of Keane,the man who replaced him and did ever so well.Ince and Keane are similar in their style,combative and able leaders but somehow Keane just outshone Ince.
As Sir Alex labelled him a big-time Charlie,we can just imagine Becks with the gaffer was just a duplicate version of Ince before him.
Cheers
Alright, thank you Eric for the explanation, though I thought I read in Giggs autobiography something about the Old Trafford fans booing on his return and I think he scored against you guys while with Liverpool. Moreover, I saw this poll about which ex-Liverpool player we hated the most, I saw Diouf and Ince's names popping out quite often. Hahaha. Yeah, anyway thanks.
eric...
I dont think Rafa is building a team for the future. He is building a team for the moment.
What is the average age of the liverpool players?
Arsenal is the team building for the future..
br/mlmth
No prob lala.I think Ince just can't please everyone with that kind of rivalry between the 2 clubs eh.At least its not as bad as Figo leaving Barca for Real Madrid.Thats a no-brainer foolish move.
Let me see eh.Liverpool team average age is around 26 based on players who featured the most regularly for Rafa since he never really have a starting 11 on his mind.And this squad age is in fact quite perfect for a team challenging for honours as footballers only peak around 27-30 which means quite soon for most of the Reds players such as Gerrard and Carragher.
Of course compared to Arsenal,its relatively older but judging from Rafa past signings,he signed quite a few of them such as Palleta,Agger and Sissoko when they are only 20-23,obviously he has the team's future in his foresight as well.I can say its for Pool long term future whereas in Arsenal case,its for a long long term period per say.heh.
So far I remember Rafa only signed one player whos over 30yrs old and that is Pellegrino from his old club Valencia,who proved to be a flop.Maybe after that Rafa won't take the gamble again or will he?I guess ladylala will fly over and stop the transfer if she can.haha
i think that ferguson should include the class of 1992. the likes of beckham, giggs, etc did played a part for man utd greatest era where they did win the trebles and hence set the mark for all EPL clubs to try and break their records. chelsea might come close if they managed to win their premiership crown this season by i seriously hope not!
man utd did suffered after they let becks off to real madrid. they weren't able to get their rhythm on track and ronaldo wasn't as good as he is now.
i think he deserve to be in the top ten at least even if he wasn't in eric cantona and bobby carlton league.
I'm always amazed by how under-rated David Beckham is. He works hard, crosses better than anyone else and is lethal with a deadball. Without him supplying the crosses for RVN, would they have been such a force?
Well Leamas, do not get us wrong. I think most would agree Beckham is a good player. You do not survive playing at the highest level for as long as he has based on good looks alone. We do not begrudge his achievements and contributions during his time at United or while playing for England.
What most of us are saying is while he may be a great passer of the ball and a skilled exponent of deadball situations, he simply does not compare to the 5 on Fergie's list. He is not unique in what he does. Lots of other players work hard, are deadball specialists and wonderful passers. The likes of Juninho at Lyon or Pirlo of Milan are some to name a few.
The only difference is they do not have marketing machines behind them or "good-looks" to be dubbed a so-called superstar. Becks has allowed his pop lifestyle interfere with his football and he's just a shadow of his old self now. A spent force he is now sadly.
Hm...It seems like Beckham's good looks is a double-edged sword eh.Bringing him the immense level of popularity he enjoyed today and also the cruel isolation on the football scene.
How funny life can be...
Cheers
Yup, Hadi hit the nail on its head exactly. Becks is good, but nowhere near world-class (like of Ronaldinho's standard, or those 4 or 5 Fergie mentioned). So what if he can cross the ball and take free-kicks accurately? Rommedahl can run fast, but he's nowhere good too. Haha, of course, Becks is still better than Rommedahl, but my point is that one strength of yours doesn't make you world-class.
But then again, if Becks was just any regular player who was a good crosser and good set-piece taker, guess what, I wouldn't be against him coming to Liverpool. We can always put him on the bench after all, and he'll just be another "possibility". The reason why I'm so against it is because with him comes this big megastar package. High (and unjustified) salary, a meddling wife, his Japanese girls fan club (think "He is very handsome. Very cool!"), the whole paparazzi and all. And not forgetting, he's an ex-Devil.
And anyway, regarding the average age thing... Alright, I tried calculating. Taking 15 players from each side (the 15 players I chose are debatable, but you can ask me later who I chose), average age for Arsenal was 25.4, and Liverpool’s 25.7. And while Liverpool do not have someone as young as 19 (Fabregas), at least our first-choice keeper is currently 24, while Arsenal's 37! It eventually balances itself out.
Yes, obviously someone like Fabregas can last for at least another 10 years, but looking at Liverpool's squad right now, I think this team can last for another 5 years. Like Eric mentioned, the only above 30 player Rafa bought was Pellegrino, and to be fair, he was just a short-term backup measure. I believe the next oldest player we bought would be Morientes, who again was gone within a year.
Anyway, I don't want to be comparing with Arsenal, perhaps we're really not as "young" as them, but just wanted to point out we're not so different like others think. I believe Rafa is building a team that lies somewhere in between for “the moment" and "the future”. Till date, I think the oldest player Rafa bought for Liverpool (after Morientes and Pellegrino) would be Bellamy at 27? Most of his first-team signings are in the 21-25 range (Gonzalez, Sissoko, Agger, Alonso, Crouch, Pennant, etc), though he has bought his fair share of youngsters below 20, except he doesn't throw them into the first-team as quickly as Arsene does.
There is no denying of Beckham being one of the "Class of 92". He was a brilliant footballer who deserved everything he won.
He just let his lifestyle overshadow his own ability. It gets difficult for us to take his football seriously when he's in the tabloids for wearing an alice band or a sarong.
For all that say he's a joke, we may want to reconsider why.
Imagine this, he did hold the right midfield position for about a decade. He beat Kacheliski to it anyhow. And no one was as bad a flop as Veron or Taibi was...
What Fergie said was his one opinion. We are all entitled to our own. too many people have been missed out on that ranking anyway,
McClair, Hughes, Robson, Ince, Bruce. These only during Fergie's time alone. Might i remind you of the Busby Babes?
Ranking don't matter.
Instead, let's remember the good times and look forward to the new ones Cristiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney will bring for us.
Thank you all for the momories
Ladylala..
I don't know how you come up with the computations..
but at least you should have considered giving two players at each position or those players that at least have played 5 times this season or has spent their time on the bench.
If you group them at positions with at least 5 games played.
Liverpool;
GK: 28.5
Defender: 28.0
Midfield: 25.5
Striker: 26.75
Liverpool is already a prime team which most players already reaching their peak. I wouldn't consider them a rebuilding team anymore.
I would certain agree on what Darman stated...
You had judged beckham on his off pitch personality. Some claiming rubbish accusations this and that. He had keep his position in ManUnited for most of his time there and the credit for that was not because of his good looks. I would brand most of you an hypocrite if you were not frustrated when he was injured prior to the 92 world cup. Or you have all short term memories.
He may not be world class as i stated previously but he is not totally worthless on the pitch as most of you want to say.
and that is coming from an arsenal fan and with quite certain prejudice on ManUnited
Alright, I admit the 15 I selected (especially from Arsenal) were quite random, after a while, I realised there's really a lot more than just 15 or 16 Arsenal players who've featured this season, because they've lost quite a few first choices through injury and all.
But in a fairer way, if you just take the starting XI for both Arsenal and Liverpool in their last game, the average age of Liverpool would be 26.2, while Arsenal's 25.3. So yes, Arsenal do have a relatively younger squad, but again, I don't feel the difference is too great.
And even though you feel Liverpool do not need further rebuilding because they're at their prime, I think all good managers are always looking to further strengthen their team and continually bring in players who can help play a major role in the current season and future seasons. In any case, even if we wanted to bring in players at their prime, I think Beckham has passed his prime at 31. Oh, I suddenly remember Fowler, but whereas Fowler was on a free transfer, relatively low salary and has the status of being a Kop legend, Beckham is quite a different case altogether.
LadyLala,
You remove both the oldest and the youngest player on both teams and you will see the difference.
Haha, well, if you remove the OLDEST and YOUNGEST in the last starting XI for both, I think it'd work out to be about the same! The average age of both Lehmann (37) and Fabregas (19) is 28, while between Hyypia (33) and Gonzalez (22) it's 27.5!
Oh dear, can we move away from the Maths now?
And I'm not discrediting Arsenal for their promising youth policy, it's just that I don't think Liverpool are as old as Bolton (well again, it's the impression I have of Bolton. I can't be bothered to do the maths for Bolton here).
Ladylala.. Since you based your argument on the last match...i will give you the stats taking the youngest and oldest players.
And I do hope you can see the difference.
Reina 24
Carragher 28
Finnan 30
Alonso 25
Gerrard 26
Pennant 23
Riise 26
Crouch 26
Kuyt 26
Dudek 33
Agger 22
Aurelio 27
Luis Garcia 28
Fowler 31
Average 26.78
Clichy 21
Hoyte 22
Senderos 21
Toure 25
Silva 30
Hleb 25
Rosicky 26
Henry 29
Van Persie 23
Almunia 29
Djourou 19
Denilson 18
Flamini 22
Aladiere 23
23.78
We are going way off the topic in here but what i am pointing out is that Liverpool roster is on their prime...and not in the rebuilding process. They are in position to challenge for the title it is just that they come up short most of the time.
wcHaha, alright, if you include the subs, I guess that's a fair result since Arsenal does have a very youthful bench. In a way, I would agree with you that we're no longer in the process of rebuilding itself, as rebuilding work started 3 seasons ago when Rafa just arrived at the club.
But I do maintain that Rafa usually signs players who're young enough to be able to contribute to the team even in 4 or 5 years' time (with the exception of emergency short-term measures like Fowler or Pellegrino). We're always building our squad, though it's not REbuilding itself. I think before all the digression, we were talking about Becks right? Well, I think I've already made my stand on Becks to Liverpool very clear! On with something else now...
Ladylala seems to doing extra maths homework here eh.heh
Well dear mad little me,seriously I don't think the rebuilding phase of Arsenal and Liverpool is that really important.
The fact is that Rafa don't sign many above 30 years old player and Becks is 31.Liverpool wages structure has always been very firm,if Beckham arrived,the whole wage system surely will goes chaotic unless Becks volunteer to take a huge pay-cut,if not conflict among the team will sure arise.I bet thats the last thing Rafa and fans want to see.
Cheers
Frankly, i do not see why people are clamouring after Becks for his inclusion. Shouldn't it be V.nisterooy who deserves more to be called world-class? Becks makes goals but Van the man scores them. While Becks can be said to have gone into decline after his departure frm Man U, Van has gone from strength to strength. Even Fergie once said that V.N has been the best striker he had. This exclusion I am sure had something to do with the 'bust-up' that resulted in Van's exit from Man Utd.
I guess Becks is getting more attention because his situation now is different from V.N as he's career is dwindling by the moment. If any further inclusions should be made on World Class status, it should be V.Nisterooy.
Cheers,
kel
Kelvin is right. Besides those on Ferguson's list,there are definitely other players worth mentioning besides Beckham.
Nistelrooy is definitely one candidate. Goal predator supreme and United's all-time leading goalscorer in Europe. Should Beckham be ahead of him?
How about Bryan Robson? Inspirational motivator and a box-to-box midfield general. Is Beckham better than Captain Marvel?
Paul Scholes, the Ginger Terror himself, who remains the heartbeat of the United side. Superb vision, great passer who scores goals.Is Becks better than Scholes?
All of them world-class players who didn't made it to Fergie's list. Hence, while Beckham can still be an asset to any team, I personally feel other players deserved more of a mention to be in that list than Becks.
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